[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2020-07-24 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum by Ksenia139960 ]
Are all of the cases covered in this course?
14 Comments
So, first question: what are all the cases?
If I use this list, we get 20: https://myhunlang.com/2010/05/21/cases/
Other lists will give a different total number :P
These come up on Duolingo:
- NOMINATIVE
- ACCUSATIVE = -t
- ILLATIVE = -ba, -be
- INESSIVE = -ban, -ben
- ELATIVE = -ból, -ből
- SUBLATIVE = -ra, -re
- SUPERESSIVE = -n, -on, -en, -ön
- DELATIVE = -ról, -ről
- ALLATIVE = -hoz, -hez, -höz
- ADESIVE = -nál, -nél
- ABLATIVE = -tól, -től
So nominative, accusative + those 9 cases that form a 3 x 3 matrix
http://www.hungarianreference.com/Nouns/triads-of-movement.aspx
For the others: DATIVE -nak -nek only comes up at the possessive skills.
(Should be also mentioned separatedly)
INSTRUMENTAL = -val, -vel. There are a few sentences with this, just thrown in there....
TEMPORAL = -kor
TERMINATIVE = -ig: not covered now, but I think it should be added in Tree 2.
COMITATIVE = -stul,-stül
DISTRIBUTIVE = -nként
DISTRIBUTIVE TEMPORAL = -nként, -nta, -nte
MODAL = -képp, -képpen, -ként
TRANSLATIVE = -vá, -vé
These are not covered and I think we should not add them. Too complicated. (Ok, maybe -nta, -nte, if we think of naponta, hetente, évente, that should be added.)
P.S: another list: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_magyar_nyelv_eseteinek_list%C3%A1ja
- 24
- 20
672
Are there some fixed rules about how far a Duolingo course may go (e.g., so many lessons, up to A1 and not beyond, or such)? I wouldn't mind the tree to go 10 or 15 levels deep instead of 5, all the way into complex grammar and lots of additional vocabulary areas. I don't see why some cases should not be covered; nothing is "too complicated" if it in use by native speakers.
I realise that putting such a course together is a huge undertaking, though, and that at some stage one has to stop adding to it and publish... Still, seeing how much Duolingo has helped me up to this point, I can't help but wish that it could accompany my learning much longer on the road to fluency!
- 24
- 10
- 5
- 4
- 910
I wouldn't mind the tree to go 10 or 15 levels deep instead of 5,
The levels move into more and more recall eg type a sentence in your TL from scratch - rather than simple recognition. The actual material doesn't change.
You get more depth by the number of lessons - especially in Hungarian which often each lesson concentrates on a different aspect of the skill.
I don't see why some cases should not be covered; nothing is "too complicated" if it in use by native speakers.
Native speakers have 100% immersion and many years of learning. Native speakers also don't get it right 100% of the time.
Are there some fixed rules about how far a Duolingo course may go (e.g., so many lessons, up to A1 and not beyond, or such)?
There are no fixed rules. The Duolingo recommendation is to go to A1 first, then A2 at a later iteration.
The Hungarian course already went beyond this point, (in some topics), those Dir. Conj. skills are harder than A2.
It is also a recommendation by Duo: do not try to include everything.
The thing is, the Duolingo design also puts constraints on the course. One cannot go to C1 level if the lessons are translating stand alone sentences to English. At that level, you would be better off by leaving English out and just read and speak Hungarian without translating.
- 25
- 25
- 22
- 18
- 8
- 4
- 3
- 3
- 3
- 3
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 1319
I am pretty sure the reverse tree Hungarian-English uses -kor, -ig, -ként and -vé somewhere, naponta was definitiely somewhere in there.
Found these: Hetekig
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/2129001
Elkezdett színészként dolgozni.
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/3770720
Óránként egy kosarat készítünk.
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/3533491
A kertben dolgozva találtam rá.
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/1740226
A vizet borrá változtatod.
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/1974412
A nagynéném évente egy levelet ír.
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/3023887
Ksenia, definitely check that reverse tree out. A loooot easier than the Hungarian tree and teaches lots of new bits and pieces, also all the other cases without mentioning it much.
- 22
- 21
- 20
- 13
- 6
without mentioning it much
I don't think that's what a learner needs and your faulty collection reassures that.
Hetekig is like idiomatical, it doesn't mean what it literally should (for weeks instead of until weeks). Óránként and színészként doesn't even contain the same suffix, -nként vs -ként and their meanings have nothing to do with each other (per .. minutes vs as an actor). "A kertben dolgozva találtam rá" doesn't contain anything you listed, only two common cases -ban and a pronominal -ra. To be clear, -va and -vá have nothing to do with each other.
So I suspect these kind of shortcuts don't really work.
- 25
- 25
- 22
- 18
- 8
- 4
- 3
- 3
- 3
- 3
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 2
- 1319
Of course that course is designed for Hungarians who know about their language and don't need an explanation for their language, so it is not ideal if you need and wish for detailed explanations of the base language. That's not its purpose.
But considering the rather few comments, Hungarians have no problem adapting to the simpler rules of English grammar and were mostly not so frustrated.
The course adds stuff to the stuff taught here. That's what works for them and might be interesting for Hungarian beginners who just finished here.
I just tried to find some examples of what jzsuzsi listed was missing here. She listed nkent and kent, so I tried to find examples for both. Many cases fly right over my head so I might have found some examples that don't fit to what was asked. But as it is not structured in cases skills, I had to search in the mess of my memory and what I could come up with in a few moments of thought.
What shortcut? The OP asked about further stuff. I answered that some of it can be found in the reverse course. That's not a shortcut, just another possible way to further dive into Hungarian within the duolingo system and possibly a first adventure trying to see Hungarian as the base and not the other way round.
- 22
- 21
- 20
- 13
- 6
Well you don't need to tell me why it wouldn't contain as much explanation for Hungarian. :) I just thought your last paragraph about the reverse tree being "a looot easier than the Hungarian tree" sounded misleading, especially combined with an all over the place list of sentences. Sure everyone is free to check it out but it's not like it truly matters whether it's "easier" or not since it's not a replacement - let alone, for exactly this reason, I'm not sure if it's really easier as a reverse tree in the first place.
- 25
- 19
- 19
- 17
- 16
- 15
- 14
- 14
- 11
- 10
- 6
- 4
- 3
- 2
- 2
- 2867
In Hungarian we express the various cases with suffixes connected to nominals. (A nominal can be a noun, adjective, numeral or pronoun in Hungarian.) I think we don't have to insist on thinking in cases, except for the nominative, accusative and dative. For example, you don't think that the suffix "with" indicates an instrumental case either. Simple, "with" is a preposition, and "-val/-vel" is a suffix in Hungarian.
- 25
- 18
- 18
- 16
- 15
- 11
- 8
- 3
- 3
- 2
- 492
Right. I think that the case names just make it more confusing. They didn't use them in the course books I have and I think it's an easier approach.
- 24
- 10
- 5
- 4
- 910
And we never use them in class - even at C1. The teacher just says "érzékeny valamire" or "kerül valakinek valamibe".
- 24
- 10
- 5
- 4
- 910
No - I don't think they are all covered - and they are only really covered wrt spacial relationships. You don't do much with verbs other than vár vkire. Basically no imperative either - or any real practice with conditional.
- 22
- 21
- 20
- 13
- 6
I don't know who would downvote this question, there is nothing malicious or distracting about it, it's just... naive but that can be helped.
The thing is, there isn't even a consensus among linguists about what "all cases" would be in Hungarian. Natives never learn about "cases" in grammar lessons, let alone "all of them". They are just a subgroup of a subgroup of suffixes. Most cases have the same function and almost the same grammatical rules as postpositions.
Now, would you ask whether all English prepositions are covered in an A1 (or even A2) course? It just doesn't feel useful or meaningful to do when it's really just lexical learning. Similarly, just because Hungarian cases take the form of suffixes and they can have 2 or 3 forms with vowel harmony, it doesn't mean you have to learn them all one by one in the first place. Once you know literally 2 or 3 possible patterns, you don't need them all covered, you can just learn them on the way like you learn vocab and phrases.
No comments:
Post a Comment