[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2019-01-15 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum by jzsuzsi ]  https://archive.ph/laGcz

Collection of useful forum posts

Thanks to this community, there are so-so many useful comments in the Forum, explaining Hungarian grammar. But they are not easy to find. Here, I try to collect them.

If you don't want to click through all of these, just quickly get some answers (to questions that come up often and have relatively short answers) take a look at this:
Frequently asked questions. What is the difference between ... kérek/akarok, tud/ismer, idős/öreg/régi, kettő/két, kicsi/kis, hanem/de ... https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/here-are-some-questions-and-answers.html

Grammar

When should we omit „van”?
Main post: https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/when-to-use-vanvannak.html
see also: https://archive.ph/aXaMb sentence discussion for „A férfi tűzoltó”

Van and nincs
https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/van-and-nincs.html

What is a general statement? https://archive.ph/C614U (sentence discussion)

An adjective is singular or plural:
Main post: https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/plural-adjectives.html
(also for milyen and milyenek)
see also: https://archive.ph/ldxCo  (sentence discussion) „Mi van a kicsi táskákban?”

The use of articles in Hungarian https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/02/the-use-of-articles-in-hungarian.html

Using "egy" https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/02/using-egy.html

Nem- Hanem sentences
https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/nem-hanem-sentences.html

Hungarian Cases For Beginners
https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/02/hungarian-cases-for-beginners.html

Difference between "mellett" and "-nél/-nál"
https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/02/difference-between-mellett-and-nel-nal.html
(and also https://archive.ph/bDPqJ sentence discussion)

Ami, amelyik, amely
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/19015205 = https://archive.ph/tdBxk
 https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/17279272 =  https://archive.ph/gvEFb  (SD)

Ott....ahol
 https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/26839319  = https://archive.ph/FAhGu   (SD)

Is, sem, and double negatives
 https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/is-sem-and-double-negatives.html

előtt és elöl https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/elott-es-elol.html

elől, előtt, elé https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/17986625  = https://archive.ph/uqPKq (SD)

Verb conjugations (present tense, indefinite)
https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/verb-conjugations-present-indefinite.html

Grammar details: Definite and Indefinite https://magyarbagoly.blogspot.com/2022/01/definite-and-indefinite-conjugation.html

Ami, amelyik, amely

 [#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2016-08-20 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum, this is a sentence discussion for "Az az iroda a harmadik elemeten olyan, mint ez." ]

Ami, amelyik, amely   https://duolingo.hobune.stream/comment/17279272

"Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten olyan, amilyen ez."

Translation:That office on the third floor is like this one.

Comment by AlsEenPoffertje

When do you use "olyan...mint" and when do you use "olyan...amilyen"? Here are the sentences I've gotten for both, just to use as examples:

Mint:

• Ez az asztal olyan, mint az. = This table is like that one.
• Az a kutya olyan, mint ez. = That dog is like this one.

Amilyen:

• A szobor a városban olyan, amilyen a város: unalmas. = The statue in the city is like the city: boring.

• Az iskola előtt olyan óvónő harcol, amilyen a város fölött repül. = In front of the school such a kindergarten teacher is fighting as the one that is flying above the city.

• Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten olyan, amilyen ez. = That office on the third floor is like this one.

What's the difference between the two in this type of structure?

Initially I thought it might have to do with the fact that just a pronoun is used after the two examples with mint, but the same is true of the last example with amilyen. :/

Comment by 96314081311257

• They seem to be interchangeable to me, or you could even use both (mint amilyen.) Pay extra attention to the óvónő one because you need to add a pronoun if you use mint: Olyan óvónő harcol, mint aki/ami/amelyik repül.

Comment by vvsey

Yes, they are interchangeable, in this case. But this is just like special relativity - it is just a special case of the much broader theory of general relativity. See, in special relativity... but I digress.

Look closely at the "olyan - amilyen" pair. There is something common in them.

Yes, they are in the same case!

Let's call it the nominative case. They are both in the nominative.

But they don't need to be in the nominative. They could both be in the accusative:

"olyat - amilyet":

• "Milyen sört kérsz?"
• "Olyat, amilyet te iszol."

Or any other case:

• "Milyen autóval mész?" - What kind of car are you going with?
• "Olyannal, amilyennel te" - "With such a one as the one you are."
  Or:
• "Olyannal, mint te". - "Same as you."

Back to the beer for a second:

"Olyat, amilyet te iszol." - "Such, as the one you drink".
I could not say this one with just "mint". Because there is "iszol" - "you drink". That is, "you drink something". And that something is in the accusative. For the logic of the sentence to stay intact, I need something in the accusative that "iszol" can refer to.
And I can't put "mint" in the accusative! I need the word "amilyen" which I can freely conjugate. "Olyat, amilyet te iszol."

So, if I need to conjugate in the second clause, I do need the word "amilyen".

If I remove "iszol":

• "Milyen sört kérsz?"
• "Olyat, amilyet te."

then I do not need to worry about any conjugation. The only thing other than "amilyet" in the second clause is "te". A subject. And "te" does not care. The word "amilyet" is in the same case as "olyat", it can safely be replaced by "mint":

• "Olyat, mint te." - perfect.

Any other case is also possible, of course.

Now it becomes interesting.

The two members of the pair do not need to be in the same case. Pick virtually any two cases (noun suffix or postposition) and apply them separately to the two:

"olyanBÓL - amilyenHEZ"
"olyan ALATT - amilyenBEN"
"olyanNAL - amilyenRE"
Etc.

• "Milyen autóval megyünk?" - What kind of car are we going with?
• "OlyanNAL, amilyenRE pénzünk van" - "WITH such one FOR which we have money."

Do I need to further explain why "amilyen" is needed here? Something must be conjugated to indicate the case of the second clause. "Mint" can't be conjugated. We need "amilyen".

So, let's set up the rule here:

The full form is:

"olyan .... , mint amilyen ...".

The word "mint" is optional, it can be omitted.
And the word "amilyen" can be omitted (keeping "mint") under one of these conditions:
- if both are in the nominative case
- sometimes if at least the second clause is in the nominative
- if both are in the same case, and the only other thing the second clause contains is a subject.

So, that's how "olyan, amilyen" and "olyan, mint" are special cases and are interchangeable.

I hope I didn't miss or mess up anything.

Nyolc meg három az tizenegy.

 

"Eight plus three is eleven."

Translation:Nyolc meg három az tizenegy.

comment by alex435067:

Why is it AZ here before tizenegy and not A?

comment by MadyNora:

"Az" has two meanings. It can be an article "the", or the pointer "that". As an article it's paired as "a/az". As a pointer it's paired az "ez/az".

Ez = this // Az = that.

Here, it's the pointer. "Eight plus three, that is, eleven". It points at the number eleven.

Other examples:

Az mi? = What is that?

Az könyv = That's a book ("Az egy könyv" is also correct)

Az a könyv = That is the book // That book.

Ez könyv = This is a book ("Ez egy könyv" is also correct)

Ez a könyv = This is the book. // This book.

Az egy óra = That's a clock. The reason we almost always use "egy" here, is to avoid misunderstandings that would come from "az" having two meanings. Technically "Az óra" would work as well, but you'd have have to pronounce it in a specific way to make people understand that you want to say "that's a clock" and not "the clock". Using "egy" is more easy and foolproof :)

Az az óra = That is the clock. // That clock.

Comment by vvsey:

This is a demonstrative "az", not a definite article.
Think of it literally as:
"Eight plus three, THAT is eleven."

source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/25140995 =  https://archive.ph/6Yi9Q

Another math sentence:

"How much is one hundred divided by fifteen?"

Translation:Százban a tizenöt az mennyi?

Comment by jzsuzsi

Százban a tizenöt az mennyi?
Mennyi száz osztva tizenöttel?
Mennyi százban a tizenöt?

All of them are correct. Duolingo is weird a bit with divisions (the addition, subtraction, multiplication sentences are fine)

Duo used Százban a tizenöt az mennyi? as a pattern, because -ban was already introduced. It is literally "15 inside 100 is how much?" But it is a bit weird for Hungarians. I think most Hungarians would prefer "száz osztva tizenöttel" which Duolingo did not teach because "osztva" and -val-vel are not introduced at this point :(

source:  https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/36189495 =  https://archive.ph/s2rE8

"Six divided by two is three."

Translation:Hatban a kettő az három.

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For all the other examples you don't need the definite article in front of the second operand. So I'm wondering is there an exception for two or is that answer missing from the bank. Thanks!

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jzsuzsi

MOD

PLUS

Other examples:

Tizenötben a három az öt. (:)
Nyolcvannyolcban a negyvennégy az kettő.
Nyolcban a kettő az négy.
Negyvenkilencben a hét az hét.

• Nyolc meg három az tizenegy. (+)
  Huszonnégy meg huszonnégy az negyvennyolc.
  Kilencven meg három az kilencvenhárom.

• Nyolcból hat az kettő. (-)
  Tizenkilencből húsz az mínusz egy.
  Ötből négy az egy.

• Hatszor hat az harminchat. (*)
  Hússzor öt az száz.

So "X divided by Y" is the exception in this skill, but for addition, subtraction, multiplication, you don't need the definite article in front of the second operand.

Btw, for"Six divided by two is three", there is another way to say this in Hungarian: Hat osztva kettővel az három. It fits the pattern better (no article in front of kettővel).

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tykovv

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Thanks for highlighting the pattern and the clear examples. Much appreciated!

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Wyrg14

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Is there a post somewhere that explains these math constructions? In general I think I get it (-ban/-ben is division, -ból/-böl is subtraction, etc.), but here I was completely taken by surprise by the "az"... Why "az" and not "a"?

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Judit294350

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Here "az" is "that" - six divided by two - that's three.

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Arpad737071

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Although I am a native speaker, I discovered the proper and preferred way of saying this only on DuoLingo. :)
My teachers didn't know it either, as they would always instruct those saying it in this way, that the correct forms are either one of these:

Hat osztva kettővel az három.
Hatban a kettő megvan háromszor. -> Two is contained in six three times.

 

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/40000751 = https://archive.ph/HDHOQ

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/31365733 = https://archive.ph/wUmDy

azok között a városok között

[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2016-07-01 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum, this is a sentence discussion for "Van egy nagy hegy azok között a japán városok között." ]

"Van egy nagy hegy azok között a japán városok között."

Translation:There is a big mountain between those Japanese cities.


Comments:

Comment by TakizawHideaki:

Why is között repeated twice?

Comment by vvsey: 

This is a tricky one, let me see if I can make sense of it. This is a pattern that you can probably apply in many situations. It has to do with a preposition plus a.... a demonstrative adjective. In more plain English, a preposition followed by this/that/these/those.

Here are a few examples:

Between those cities

under that tree

behind this box

because of these boys

Demonstrative adjectives, that is, we are "pointing" at something. If there is a preposition (under, behind, between, etc.) with this/that/these/those, you must use this repeating pattern in Hungarian. The literal way to do it is this:

dem.adj. + preposition + def.article + noun + preposition

Literally, in English: Those + between + the + cities + between

In Hungarian: Azok + között + a + városok + között