Ami, amelyik, amely

 [#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2016-08-20 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum, this is a sentence discussion for "Az az iroda a harmadik elemeten olyan, mint ez." ]

Ami, amelyik, amely   https://duolingo.hobune.stream/comment/17279272

"Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten olyan, amilyen ez."

Translation:That office on the third floor is like this one.

Comment by AlsEenPoffertje

When do you use "olyan...mint" and when do you use "olyan...amilyen"? Here are the sentences I've gotten for both, just to use as examples:

Mint:

• Ez az asztal olyan, mint az. = This table is like that one.
• Az a kutya olyan, mint ez. = That dog is like this one.

Amilyen:

• A szobor a városban olyan, amilyen a város: unalmas. = The statue in the city is like the city: boring.

• Az iskola előtt olyan óvónő harcol, amilyen a város fölött repül. = In front of the school such a kindergarten teacher is fighting as the one that is flying above the city.

• Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten olyan, amilyen ez. = That office on the third floor is like this one.

What's the difference between the two in this type of structure?

Initially I thought it might have to do with the fact that just a pronoun is used after the two examples with mint, but the same is true of the last example with amilyen. :/

Comment by 96314081311257

• They seem to be interchangeable to me, or you could even use both (mint amilyen.) Pay extra attention to the óvónő one because you need to add a pronoun if you use mint: Olyan óvónő harcol, mint aki/ami/amelyik repül.

Comment by vvsey

Yes, they are interchangeable, in this case. But this is just like special relativity - it is just a special case of the much broader theory of general relativity. See, in special relativity... but I digress.

Look closely at the "olyan - amilyen" pair. There is something common in them.

Yes, they are in the same case!

Let's call it the nominative case. They are both in the nominative.

But they don't need to be in the nominative. They could both be in the accusative:

"olyat - amilyet":

• "Milyen sört kérsz?"
• "Olyat, amilyet te iszol."

Or any other case:

• "Milyen autóval mész?" - What kind of car are you going with?
• "Olyannal, amilyennel te" - "With such a one as the one you are."
  Or:
• "Olyannal, mint te". - "Same as you."

Back to the beer for a second:

"Olyat, amilyet te iszol." - "Such, as the one you drink".
I could not say this one with just "mint". Because there is "iszol" - "you drink". That is, "you drink something". And that something is in the accusative. For the logic of the sentence to stay intact, I need something in the accusative that "iszol" can refer to.
And I can't put "mint" in the accusative! I need the word "amilyen" which I can freely conjugate. "Olyat, amilyet te iszol."

So, if I need to conjugate in the second clause, I do need the word "amilyen".

If I remove "iszol":

• "Milyen sört kérsz?"
• "Olyat, amilyet te."

then I do not need to worry about any conjugation. The only thing other than "amilyet" in the second clause is "te". A subject. And "te" does not care. The word "amilyet" is in the same case as "olyat", it can safely be replaced by "mint":

• "Olyat, mint te." - perfect.

Any other case is also possible, of course.

Now it becomes interesting.

The two members of the pair do not need to be in the same case. Pick virtually any two cases (noun suffix or postposition) and apply them separately to the two:

"olyanBÓL - amilyenHEZ"
"olyan ALATT - amilyenBEN"
"olyanNAL - amilyenRE"
Etc.

• "Milyen autóval megyünk?" - What kind of car are we going with?
• "OlyanNAL, amilyenRE pénzünk van" - "WITH such one FOR which we have money."

Do I need to further explain why "amilyen" is needed here? Something must be conjugated to indicate the case of the second clause. "Mint" can't be conjugated. We need "amilyen".

So, let's set up the rule here:

The full form is:

"olyan .... , mint amilyen ...".

The word "mint" is optional, it can be omitted.
And the word "amilyen" can be omitted (keeping "mint") under one of these conditions:
- if both are in the nominative case
- sometimes if at least the second clause is in the nominative
- if both are in the same case, and the only other thing the second clause contains is a subject.

So, that's how "olyan, amilyen" and "olyan, mint" are special cases and are interchangeable.

I hope I didn't miss or mess up anything.

 [#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2017-08-08 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum by vvsey ]  https://duolingo.hobune.stream/comment/23906912

Once more on Hungarian Word Order?

This is another attempt at getting English-thinking minds around the apparent chaos that is the Hungarian word order. Here are my previous attempts:
On Emphasis and Word Order in Hungarian
Structure and word order of a Hungarian sentence

Please note, I am trying to keep it simple this time.

Let’s start with a simple sentence:

• Peter is reading a book at the library.

That is a normal English word order. Subject-Verb-DirectObject-Location(WhateverItIs).

So, how do we ask about specific elements of this sentence? We have specific question words, aimed at different elements. Who, what, where, etc. And there are elements that need more complicated phrases: what is he doing, etc.

So, for example, how do we ask about the direct object?

[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2017-01-09 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum by vvsey ]  https://duolingo.hobune.stream/comment/20169609

Structure and word order of a Hungarian sentence

The word order in a Hungarian sentence continues to be one of the major headaches for learners of Hungarian. It is not a surprise. Hungarian word order is quite different from the English one and, what's even "worse", it is variable. There is no single good word order. Yet there are rules. We can't just throw words around and expect to have a valid sentence.
Further complicating the situation is the different grammar terminology. English talks about parts of a sentence as Subject-Verb-Object, Object being Direct or Indirect, and... and adverb and adjective, and I don't know what else. At least this is what I see here in the comments as the common parts. I understand it may not be the most scientific categorization, but that is what I see most here.

Hungarian, well, Hungarian looks at things somewhat differently. It may help a bit if we overview the parts of a Hungarian sentence, according to Hungarian grammar, and see how these relate to the English terms.

These are the major parts of a Hungarian sentence:

Alany - Állítmány - Tárgy - Határozó - Jelző

Not necessarily in this order though! But we have to define what these parts are:

[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2016-11-04 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum by vvsey ]  https://archive.ph/SxuIM

On Emphasis and Word Order in Hungarian

The above is the title of a book (Kiefer, 1967). I found it while researching a question posted in the "Hungarian from English" course.

Emphasis and, especially, word order, definitely seem to be one of the major topics in the discussions all over the course. While trying to answer some of the questions learners posted, I established my own theory on the topic. It seems to be standing the test of times. Here are the main points:

• Words at the front of a sentence tend to have emphasis.
• Words (or phrases) in front of a verb (root) are emphasized. This seems to be the most emphasized position.
• Verbs without preverbs (prefixes) are not particularly emphasized and do not provide as much (syntactic) emphasis to the word or phrase in front of them as a verb with a preverb would do. That is, the emphasis is not coded in the sentence, most of it comes from semantics, intonation. (Update: please see further explanation of this in the comments below, in reply to Bastette54's question.)
• Verbs with preverbs attached are themselves emphasized.
• Verbs with preverbs detached (preverb placed after the verb) are a clear indication that the word or phrase in front of them is emphasized. This is probably the most emphasized construction.

[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2018-04-16 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum by vvsey ]  https://archive.ph/gaNv2

How to say "Yes" in Hungarian

There are several ways to say "Yes" in Hungarian.

Obviously, "yes" = "igen", no need to talk more about that.

But there are other ways, along the lines of "I do", ie. when giving an affirmative answer to a question. Needless to say, talking about yes-no questions here.

It is relatively simple. When we get a question containing a verb, we can give an affirmative answer by simply repeating the verb. If the verb refers to us, then we adjust the conjugation to the first person.
The simplest case is, of course, when the verb is "van".
A few examples:

Q: "Van kutyád?" - Do you have (a) dog(s)?
A: "Van" - I do.

Q: "Hozott a postás levelet?" - Did the postman bring any letters?
A: "Hozott." - He did.

Q: "Kérsz palacsintát?" - Do you want palacsinta?
A: "Kérek." - I do.

Q: "Voltál fogorvosnál?" - Have you been to the dentist?
A: "Voltam." - I have.