[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2016-08-20 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum, this is a sentence discussion for "Az az iroda a harmadik elemeten olyan, mint ez." ]
Ami, amelyik, amely https://duolingo.hobune.stream/comment/17279272
"Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten olyan, amilyen ez."
Translation:That office on the third floor is like this one.
When do you use "olyan...mint" and when do you use "olyan...amilyen"? Here are the sentences I've gotten for both, just to use as examples:
Mint:
- Ez az asztal olyan, mint az. = This table is like that one.
- Az a kutya olyan, mint ez. = That dog is like this one.
Amilyen:
A szobor a városban olyan, amilyen a város: unalmas. = The statue in the city is like the city: boring.
Az iskola előtt olyan óvónő harcol, amilyen a város fölött repül. = In front of the school such a kindergarten teacher is fighting as the one that is flying above the city.
Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten olyan, amilyen ez. = That office on the third floor is like this one.
What's the difference between the two in this type of structure?
Initially I thought it might have to do with the fact that just a pronoun is used after the two examples with mint, but the same is true of the last example with amilyen. :/
Comment by 96314081311257
- They seem to be interchangeable to me, or you could even use both (mint amilyen.) Pay extra attention to the óvónő one because you need to add a pronoun if you use mint: Olyan óvónő harcol, mint aki/ami/amelyik repül.
Yes, they are interchangeable, in this case. But this is just like special relativity - it is just a special case of the much broader theory of general relativity. See, in special relativity... but I digress.
Look closely at the "olyan - amilyen" pair. There is something common in them.
Yes, they are in the same case!
Let's call it the nominative case. They are both in the nominative.
But they don't need to be in the nominative. They could both be in the accusative:
"olyat - amilyet":
- "Milyen sört kérsz?"
- "Olyat, amilyet te iszol."
Or any other case:
- "Milyen autóval mész?" - What kind of car are you going with?
- "Olyannal, amilyennel te" - "With such a one as the one you are."
Or: - "Olyannal, mint te". - "Same as you."
Back to the beer for a second:
"Olyat, amilyet te iszol." - "Such, as the one you drink".
I could not say this one with just "mint". Because there is "iszol" - "you drink". That is, "you drink something". And that something is in the accusative. For the logic of the sentence to stay intact, I need something in the accusative that "iszol" can refer to.
And I can't put "mint" in the accusative! I need the word "amilyen" which I can freely conjugate. "Olyat, amilyet te iszol."
So, if I need to conjugate in the second clause, I do need the word "amilyen".
If I remove "iszol":
- "Milyen sört kérsz?"
- "Olyat, amilyet te."
then I do not need to worry about any conjugation. The only thing other than "amilyet" in the second clause is "te". A subject. And "te" does not care. The word "amilyet" is in the same case as "olyat", it can safely be replaced by "mint":
- "Olyat, mint te." - perfect.
Any other case is also possible, of course.
Now it becomes interesting.
The two members of the pair do not need to be in the same case. Pick virtually any two cases (noun suffix or postposition) and apply them separately to the two:
"olyanBÓL - amilyenHEZ"
"olyan ALATT - amilyenBEN"
"olyanNAL - amilyenRE"
Etc.
- "Milyen autóval megyünk?" - What kind of car are we going with?
- "OlyanNAL, amilyenRE pénzünk van" - "WITH such one FOR which we have money."
Do I need to further explain why "amilyen" is needed here? Something must be conjugated to indicate the case of the second clause. "Mint" can't be conjugated. We need "amilyen".
So, let's set up the rule here:
The full form is:
"olyan .... , mint amilyen ...".
The word "mint" is optional, it can be omitted.
And the word "amilyen" can be omitted (keeping "mint") under one of these conditions:
- if both are in the nominative case
- sometimes if at least the second clause is in the nominative
- if both are in the same case, and the only other thing the second clause contains is a subject.
So, that's how "olyan, amilyen" and "olyan, mint" are special cases and are interchangeable.
I hope I didn't miss or mess up anything.
Comment by 96314081311257
Milyen sört kérsz?
Olyat, mint amit iszol.
You need a relative pronoun, but it isn't necessarily amilyen.
Comment by vvsey
Yes, of course, this was specifically about the "olyan - amilyen" pair, and their relation to "mint", but there are many, many more of these words, and pairs of words (ami, amely, amelyik, amilyen, az-ami, akkor-amikor, onnan-ahonnan, azért-amiért, ugyanaz-ami, etc., etc.), for all cases and what-not, and they can even be cross-used if the context requires. So the topic is even more general.
But, hopefully, the basic concept of usage described above applies to them all.
"Ami" is somewhat special, stands in its own category (with its conjugated forms), because it can refer back to the whole first clause, not just to that one word in the first clause. So it requires special handling. But that is yet another topic.
Oh wow, I normally copy and paste explanations into my notes, but this time I think I'm going to have to just copy and paste the link to this discussion. XD
Köszönöm szépen a nagyon alapos választ! :D (I've never seen the word for "thorough", so correct me if the one I chose is wrong.)
One quick question: What is "amely" exactly? I've never seen that before. :o
Comment by vvsey
I love "quick questions" that take an hour to answer. :D
Szokás szerint nagyon szívesen!
And you are a master of the various thank you phrases, there is nothing to correct there, "alapos válasz" sounds perfect.
Here is a link to a Hungarian article about "ami", "amely" and "amelyik", so this is mostly for natives, as a reference:
http://nyelvmuveles.hu/magyarosan-nyelvhelyesseg/ami-amely-es-tarsaik
I will try to explain the bottom line.
The word "amely" is a close relative of "amelyik", and their role is similar to that of "which", in the sense of "the one that". I am trying to be as vague as possible because the match is not exact.
"AMI"
The word "ami" can have two roles.
One is to refer back to a whole previous clause:
- I lost my wallet, which is bad news.
- Elvesztettem a pénztárcámat, ami rossz hír.
This kind of usage is not particularly frequent in Hungarian, there are other ways. For example, to break the sentence into two sentences.
The other role of "ami" is to refer back to something (a phrase, a clause) that could be expressed with a noun, when the noun itself it missing.
A simple English example for this is:
- "Do not talk about what you don't understand."
The word "what" refers to something that is not named in "do not talk about". There is an implied "thing" in there. It is in "what" itself: "the thing that". So this is a good candidate for "ami":
- "Ne beszélj arról/olyasmiről, amit nem értesz."
(Hungarian requires a placeholder in the first clause, you can't just omit it, so that's why we have "arról"/"olyasmiről".)
So, "ami" refers back to an "unnamed" noun.
"AMELY"
The word "amely", on the other hand, refers back to a "named" noun. More specifically, the last noun in the referred clause. It describes it or gives more information about it.
- "We are talking about the house that we are standing in front of."
Here, the word "that" refers back to the noun "house". A "named noun". So, this is a good candidate for "amely":
- "A házról beszélünk, amely előtt állunk."
The word "amely" refers to the "named noun": "ház".
Or it can even be indefinite:
- "We are talking about a house that we saw yesterday."
- Egy házról beszélünk, amelyet tegnap láttunk."
"AMELYIK"
Again, "amelyik" is a close relative of "amely". It is an emphasized, more identifying reference back to a specific thing among many similar things. It selects "the one that". Which house are we talking about?
- We are talking about that house which is in front of us."
Here, the word "which" refers back to that specific house, a definite, named noun, out of many. So, this is a good candidate for "amelyik":
- Arról a házról beszélünk, amelyik előttünk van."
So, here, the named noun is definitely definite. It is preceded by a definite article.
I think this is it, that's the bottom line. Simple, eh? :)
see also : "The ones that are standing in front of the new taxis are not old."
Translation: Azok nem régiek, amik az új taxik előtt állnak.
https://duolingo.hobune.stream/comment/19015205
https://archive.ph/tdBxk
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