[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2018-06-02 on the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum, this is a sentence discussion for "You jump out of the window on the twentieth floor and you run to the bus." ]
"You jump out of the window on the twentieth floor and you run to the bus."
Translation: Kiugrasz az ablakon a huszadik emeleten és odafutsz a buszhoz.
Comments:
Previous sentences translated "kiugrasz az ablakon" iirc as "jump out through the window" But doesn't this need át somewhere in Hungarian?
What is wrong with:
Átugrasz az ablakon a huszadik emeletból...?
"Át + on" translates to through, and "on" is sort of like
an unused placeholder if I understood it right. But the floor probably can't
take the "out of it"?
How does that work here? I get
the meaning, but Hungarian seems to lack exact words, just says it differently
and somehow it has to mean what it states in English.
Why asztalon? You jump out on the window... But you do
nothing on the window.
You jump out of the house.
Kiugrasz házból?
But why isn't it then: Kiugrasz ablakról? The corresponding suffix for
surfaces? Or simply: Kiugrasz ablakból?
We already had "ablakban" for I see someone "in" the
window. So why not here something like out of the window?
Or is it literally more like: You jump out "the window" on the 20th floor. Window actually needs no suffix, but it has to have something as it is not the subject, so -on is added, since it is the most natural one for surfaces?
Btw
nice stunt. A 20th floor jump and still running. Must be a kindergarten teacher.
Ablakon is a strange exception again.
Kiugrik az ablakon. He jumps out of the window. Kidobnak valakit az ablakon. They throw somebody out of the window. (Defenestration) Kinézek az ablakon. I look out/though the window.
Kiesik az ablakból. He falls out of the window. Here, kiesik az ablakon is also possible.
Good question. I think "át" is omitted occasionally: kiugrasz az ablakon (át). Or: Kimész az ajtón (át) (you exit through the door)
"Kiugrasz az ablakból" would be perfect as well.
"Átugrasz az ablakon" would make me picture the person landing on the same floor. But then again the given translation of "huszadik emeleten" makes me imagine the same thing. Maybe the bus is eventually also on floor 20. :D Like a sci-fi city or something.
In the real world I'd say "Kiugrasz az ablakon/ablakból a huszadik emeletről." Thereby the "-ról/-ről" ending represents the presumable 20-floor fall.
There are bus terminals in this world that are several stories high. Not sure about 20 though, but 10 is definitely a possibility.
Anyway, I think, just like we can omit "through" in "jump out through the window", we also usually omit "át"/"keresztül" in "kiugrasz az ablakon át/keresztül". It could be there but it is not necessary. We can omit it.
"Átugrasz az ablakon" - yes, you can do it like jumping through a hoop in a circus, or I can imagine jumping over a window, above it - highly improbable.
The "-on"/"-en"/"-ön"
suffix is regularly used with movements across/through/over some other thing.
"Átmegyek az utcán." - I cross the street.
"Felmegyek a lépcsőn." - I go up the stairs.
"Kinézek az ablakon." - I look out the window.
"Átkelek a folyón." - I go across the river.
"Kilépek az ajtón." - I step out the door.
etc.
So, the object marked with "-on"/"-en"/"-ön" is
kind of the reference to my movement.
Yes, it is not the subject, so it needs some kind of a suffix. That kind of makes sense. And it is also not the direct object in this type of structure, so we end up using "-on"/"-en"/"-ön". The action/movement is typically on the surface of or through/across something.
"Kinézek az ablakon." -
I look out the window.
"Kilépek az ajtón." - I step out the door.
These two will be hard and "disorienting". It just sounds wrong when the movement is actually perpendicular to those surfaces. On always meant parallel for me. I don't even exactly know what bothers me. Something feels just wrong or missing.
But it makes some sense, at least I know that when i miss the exact expected words I have to fill in the rest by German or English or logic. Which is for understanding probably not that hard. But saying something like this will feel weird.
Really interesting that "a jump out (of something) "through" the window on 20th floor" could be understood as though the action would also end on the very same 20th floor (on a nearby building (since we jumped out of the first one) without some fall afterwards. (Not even Tom Cruise was able to defy gravity and broke his ankle.)
I kind of get that jumping and
window needs no át, that it is even irritating when used as the main (? as
secondary it is ok?) preverb, but that a fall is not implied is kind of funny:
"I will throw you out through the window on the 20th
floor", and the Hungarian would just smile and believe he will survive it
like the person here.
At least the -ból + -ról combination helps. I will use that (but not higher than on ground floor ;-) )
Ich springe
durch das Fenster vom 20sten Stock raus und laufe zum Bus hin.
Ich springe aus dem Fenster des 20sten Stocks raus und laufe zum Bus hin.
Ich springe beim Fenster im 20sten Stock raus und laufe zum Bus hin.
Ich gelange durch das Fenster vom 20sten Stock mittels Sprung raus und laufe
zum Bus hin.
It is hard to assume that the bus would be on the same level with the jump out bit. Out is out. Buildings with windows usually aren't build that near another building, at least not their window front, which would make this stunt plausible/ horizontal.
Yep, a sci-fi movie city and with Matrix / superhero physics. Then it makes easily sense.
"Kinézek az ablakon (át/keresztül)." - I look out (through) the window.
"Kilépek az ajtón (át/keresztül)." - I step out (through) the door.
These are cases where we omit some words. Basically, the through/across situation needs the "-on"/"-en"/"-ön" ending, even if the "át"/"keresztül" is omitted.
· "Really interesting that "a jump out (of something) "through" the window on 20th floor" could be understood as though the action would also end on the very same 20th floor ..."
Here you misunderstood something.
"Kiugrasz az ablakon"
will be understood as a jump and a fall to the ground.
(Of course, this is not coded in the sentence, this is just implied knowledge.
We know that windows are usually placed on the outside walls of buildings,
therefore jumping out through them usually involves a fall. Naturally,
Hungarian buildings also share that characteristic.)
What we were saying was that
"átugrasz az ablakon"
means something else.
"Át", as a preverb,
means something like "across", "through", "over".
Kind of, from one side to the other. Or between two similar places.
Therefore, "átugrasz az ablakon" sounds a bit weird. It sounds as if
you were saying jump across like jumping through a hoop.
With "átugrasz", think of situations like jumping over a fence, over
a crack on the pavement, jumping across a creek, jumping from one bed to the
other, things like that. Places on more or less the same level (+/- one
millimeter - have your altimeter handy).
Normally, we would NOT say
"átugrasz az ablakon".
That would be an unusual situation.
We would say
"kiugrasz az ablakon".
And the implication is the same as in English or German.
Do not mix
"átugrasz az ablakon"
and
"kiugrasz az ablakon".
One is jumping across, the other is jumping out. There is a huge difference, potentially of a 20-storey height.
If we are talking about an omitted "át", it would be omitted from both:
"átugrasz az ablakon át"
"kiugrasz az ablakon át".
Except it sounds even more weird with "átugrasz".
But, again, do not mix "át-" as a preverb, belonging to the verb, with "át" as a postposition, belonging to the noun!
"átugrasz" means you jump over/across
"az ablakon át" means through the window - it indicates a reference to the action.
Of course, there is a great
restaurant on the 20th floor, with a window between the kitchen and the sitting
area. And you are allowed, when the boss is not looking, to jump out of the
kitchen, through the window. And hopefully your jump will be short enough so
you will end up staying on the 20th floor.
But this scenario really needs a context - hopefully, in any language.
"Az ablakon át" - you can think of it as a posposition or an adverb that requires a certain suffix on the noun. It is similar to how certain English words require a similar extra element:
"because OF"
"together WITH"
In Hungarian, the postpositions
"át" and "keresztül" require the
"-on"/"-en"/"-ön" suffix.
There are a few more like this: "túl", "innen",
"együtt", etc.
"a határon túl" -
over/beyond the border
"a határon innen" - on this side of the border
"a barátommal együtt" - together with my friend.
It is almost like a coincidence
that there is a preverb "át" and there is a postposition/adverb
"át". It may be the same word, but it is used in two separate roles,
and the two are not to be mixed.
Which reminds me of another pair of preverbs that can also be their own words:
"ide" and "oda":
"odamegyek hozzád" -
preverb
"oda bemegyek" - adverb
Yes, in the second phrase, "oda" is not a preverb, which is further demonstrated by the fact that the verb has another preverb: "be-".
In "kiugrasz az ablakon (át)", the verb already has a preverb: "ki-". The word "át", here, is an adverb or postposition, clearly tied to the noun "ablakon". But it can be omitted, most probably due to the suffix on the noun: "ablak-on". We understand the implication, and "át" can be omitted. The rest is up to context, semantics.
Ich springe
durch das Fenster vom 20sten Stock raus und laufe zum Bus hin.
Ich springe aus dem Fenster des 20sten Stocks raus und laufe zum Bus hin.
Ich springe beim Fenster im 20sten Stock raus und laufe zum Bus hin.
Ich gelange durch das Fenster vom 20sten Stock mittels Sprung raus und laufe
zum Bus hin.
It is hard to assume that the bus would be on the same level with the jump out bit. Out is out. Buildings with windows usually aren't build that near another building, at least not their window front, which would make this stunt plausible/ horizontal.
Yep, a sci-fi movie city and with Matrix / superhero physics. Then it makes easily sense.
Why does it have to be odafutsz and not plain futsz? Is the oda- necessary or just good flavor?
It changes the meaning.
"Odafutsz" has the perfective aspect, so it also includes the result of that run, ie. that you make it, or maybe there is no risk of missing the bus at all, maybe they are waiting for you and you only run not to make them wait too long.
"Futsz", on the other hand, does not have the perfective aspect. It does not presume that you will catch the bus. It sounds more like a last second desperate attempt to catch that bus: your only chance is to jump out the window and immediately start running toward the bus, to catch it. Whether you catch it or not, well, it depends on how fast you run.
So, bottom line, the difference is the perfective aspect.
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source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/27506668 = https://archive.ph/EKlza
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