[#DuolingoForumGems originally posted on 2016-07-08 in the Duolingo Hungarian for English speakers forum by Rashad89 ]
Question by Rashad89
Hi guys,I am having a little problem with the verb "lenni". I still cannot understand why in some case it is there and in some it is not. I understand that it is used in questions and with adverbs. But are there any other rules that I am missing? Like why isn't there a verb in "ő egy tanár"?
Thanks in advance!
Answer by linguafiqari
I assume you're talking about "Van" and "Vannak" - these are dropped most of the time in Hungarian, but there are four cases where they are used.
Time - Expressing when something is
"Mikor van a buli?" - "When is the party?"
"A buli 7-kor van." - "The party is at 7."State - Expressing how something/someone is
"Apád ma hogy van?" - "How is your dad today?"
"Ma jobban van, mint tegnap, köszönöm." - "He is better today than he was yesterday, thank you."Location - Expressing where something is
"Hol van a mozi?" - "Where is the cinema?"
"Ott van jobbra." - "It's there on the right."(Adverbial Participle - Expressing a verbal state of a noun - this will come later on)
"Ki van nyitva az ablak?" - "Is the window open?"
"Nem, be van zárva." - "No, it's shut."
All the above become "Vannak" when the subject in question is plural:
"Itt vannak a poharak." - "Here are the glasses."
"A szobák fűtve vannak." - "The rooms are heated."
Comment by jzsuzsi
I rewrote the Tips& Notes, using linguafiqari's comment. Thanks, linguafiqari :)
The verb van ‘to be’
You will notice that Hungarian sometimes lacks a verb where English has is. For example, while in English you would say What is this?, Hungarian does not have a verb here: Mi ez?
In addition, Hungarian word order is freer than English word order. To ask What is this?, in Hungarian both Mi ez? and Ez mi? are fine.
Be careful! The verb is only missing when the subject is in the third person and the sentence expresses a property relating to the subject like Ez mi? “What is this?“, Péter egy diák “Péter is a student.”, or Péter álmos “Péter is tired.”
In other words, we omit "van" when stating what something is using an adjective or a noun.
Conjugating van
The third person form of the English verb to be in Hungarian is van. This form is used when the verb is combined with a question word or an adverb like hol ‘where’, ott ‘there’, bent ‘inside’, as described above.
Here are all the present-tense forms:
| SG | PL | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | (én) vagyok ‘I am’ | (mi) vagyunk ‘we are’ |
| 2 | (te) vagy ‘you (sg.) are’ | (ti) vagytok ‘you (pl) are’ |
| 3 | (ő) van ‘s/he is’ | (ők) vannak ‘they are’ |
When to use van and vannak
You will see that the words van and vannak are often omitted. This only happens in the third person conjugation, the first and second person vagyok, vagy, vagyunk, vagytok are never omitted.
Don't use van/vannak if you are describing what someone/something is using a noun or an adjective.
"Ő egy tanár" - "He is a teacher"
"Péter egy tanár" - "Péter is a teacher"
"Az alma piros" - "The apple is red"
"Mi az?" - "What's that?"
But do use van/vannak in the following cases (basically, describing when, how, where something/someone is.)
Time - Expressing when something is.
"Mikor van a buli?"
- "When is the party?" "A buli 7-kor van." - "The party is at 7."
State - Expressing how something/someone is.
"Apád ma hogy van?" - "How is your dad today?" "Ma jobban van, mint tegnap, köszönöm."Ű
"He is better today than he was yesterday, thank you."
Location - Expressing where something is.
"Hol van a mozi?" - "Where is the cinema?"
"Ott van jobbra." - "It's there on the right."
Adverbial Participle - Expressing a verbal state of a noun
"Ki van nyitva az ablak?" - "Is the window open?"
"Nem, be van zárva." - "No, it's shut."
All the above become "Vannak" when the subject in question is plural:
"Itt vannak a poharak." - "Here are the glasses."
"A szobák fűtve vannak." - "The rooms are heated."
See another explanation here: Hungarianreference.com/Van-is-exists-omitting
Comment by vvsey
Describing the subject - usually with an adjective or noun: no "van".Describing the verb - with an adverb(ial): yes "van".
The first one is typically saying something about the subject, describing it, its characteristics. "Piros", "hosszú", "tanár", "szép", etc.
The second one is saying something about the verb. Most typically, the location where the subject "van". "Itt van", "otthon van", "az utcán van", "nálam van".
But it can also describe the time factor or other statuses. But these are always related to the verb "van", not directly to the subject: "most van", "nyitva van", "hat órakor van", "későn van", etc.
Yes, it is different from Turkish and Russian, where you can drop the "to be" if you want (you usually do). In Hungarian, it is not a choice, it is not optional.
An example, to compare:
"Attila diák." - Attila is a student.
The noun "diák" describes the subject. There is no "van".
"Attila diákként van Magyarországon." - Attila is in Hungary as a student.
The adverbial "diákként" (as a student) describes his being in Hungary. It does not directly describe the subject, it describes the verb: "diákként van" - "is ... as a student".
Kolay gelsin.
Comment by magnetholik
Although it might not solve the problem for you definitively, here is my explanation.
The verb 'lenni' has many uses. Focusing on the simple ones you will first come across as a new student of Hungarian should help simplify matters. When you say "ő egy tanár" or simply "ő tanár", it means "he is a teacher". This is the use of "lenni" when you are drawing equivalents. Think of it like the verbal equivalent of an equal sign he = teacher, they = teacher, etc. In any such sentence the verb is dropped for third person subjects (he/she/it or anything you can replace with he/she/it). This is the general rule that, if you remember, should help you a lot. First-person and second-person subjects do not drop the verb. So you have:
tanár vagyok
tanár vagy
ő tanár (verb drops here)
mi tanárok vagyunk
ti tanárok vagytok
ők tanárok (verb drops here too)
I know it may feel weird to not use a verb there if you have not spoken a language before that has this feature, but it will become natural with a bit of practice.
The second main use you will come across in your first steps learning Hungarian is how to express the idea "There is"/"there are" -- indicating the presence of something. I see you have studied French and German, so this is the use we're talking about when we say "il y a" in French or "es gibt" in German. In this case the conjugated form of "lenni" is never dropped. Unlike German and French, however, the thing which you are indicating the presence of is the subject, not the object, so it stays in the nominative case, and does not go to accusative. For example:
egy tanár van = There is a teacher
tanárok vannak = There are teachers
Notice the difference in meaning from the previous usage. You cannot drop the verb here, and it wouldn't really make sense if you think about it because you would just be saying "egy tanár" - a teacher, or "tanárok" - teachers, if you didn't have the verb to go along with it.
Comment by jzsuzsi
Side note: the formal you grammatically works like third person.
(Én) tanár vagyok. I am a teacher.
(Te) tanár vagy. You are a teacher.
Ő tanár. (verb drops here) He/She is a teacher.
Ön tanár. You are a teacher (formal you, singular)
(Mi) tanárok vagyunk. We are teachers.
(Ti) tanárok vagytok. You are teachers.
Ők tanárok. They are teachers.
Önök tanárok. You are teachers. (formal you, plural)
Comment by tomyboy90
Yeah it is confusing. You always need the suitable form of 'lenni', except in 3SG 3PL, if the predicate is an adjective or a noun. Adverbs and adverbial phrases always need 'lenni'.
So for adjectives:
Én okos vagyok. = I am clever.
Te okos vagy. = You(sg.) are clever.
Ő okos. = He/She is clever. (!!! Don't use 'van' here.)
Mi okosak vagyunk. = We are clever.
Ti okosak vagytok. = You(pl.) are clever.
Ők okosak. = They are clever (!!! Don't use 'vannak' here.)
Also, formal ways "count" as 3rd person, so:
Ön/Maga okos. = You(sg. formal) are clever. (Don't use 'van' here either.)
Önök/Maguk okosak. = You(pl. formal) are clever. (Don't use 'vannak' here either.)
Examples for nouns:
Mi orvosok vagyunk. = We are doctors.
A barátom orvos. = My friend is a doctor. (Don't use 'van')
In case of this sentence, we have an adverbial phrase. So you always need to use the suitable form of 'lenni'.
Én a lámpák alatt vagyok.
Te a lámpák alatt vagy.
A telefon/Ő a lámpák alatt van.
Mi a lámpák alatt vagyunk.
Ti a lámpák alatt vagytok.
Ők a lámpák alatt vannak.
formal:
Maga/Ön a lámpák alatt van.
Maguk/Önök a lámpák alatt vannak.
Comment by KTamaslingo
But here are some clues:
it's not just a "to be" verb, it's a copula too sometimes, and there is a thing called zero copula that exists Hungarian and other languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copula_(linguistics)#Zero_copula
wikitionary has a very incomplete explanation: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/van#Usage_notes_2
some resources in Hungarian, which is not useful for you but maybe someone else who wants to solve this: https://sites.google.com/site/tanuljmagyarul20091113/home/gramatiko/estadi
http://www.nyest.hu/hirek/a-nevelo-es-a-letezes
Comment by peter.kristof.hu
The exact rule for omitting the "van/vannak":
"van/vannak" is omitted in 3rd Person Indicative Present Tense, except if speaking about where or how something is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_verbs#van_.28to_be.29) E.g.
Péter orvos ∅. – Peter is a doctor.
But:
Péter jól van. – Peter is well. (how?)
Péter itt van. – Peter is here. (where?)
Péter orvos volt. – Peter was a doctor. (Past Tense)
Orvos vagyok. – I am a doctor. (1st Person)
Update: very interesting using "nincs":
Péter van itt. / Péter itt van
Péter nincs itt. / Péter itt nincs.
No comments:
Post a Comment